5 Speeds Enough?

"Steve in Manhattan" (blogenfreude01) 10/26/2014 at 16:08 • Filed to: None

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I've driven a few 3 speed manuals, on the floor and one on the tree. I've owned a 4 speed (Volvo 142S) and a few 5 speeds (Jetta TDI, Camry wagon, CRX Si, Toyota HiLux 4x4). I have not driven a 6 or 7 speed manual. My question: do you really need more than 5 forward gears on a manual? It seems like extra work to me, but what do I know?

Fred (FreddsterExprs) > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:11

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6th gear is really useful for highway driving. My Fiat's 5 gears were perfect for city driving, but on faster roads I just missed a long, relaxing 6th.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:12

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My Alfa will happily pull through first 5 gears, but stick it in sixth and it gets a bit lazy. Really it's just a motorway gear. I'm sure Lamborghinis need it a bit more.

Steve in Manhattan > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/26/2014 at 16:12

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What sort of Alfa?

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:12

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Need? No. But for highway driving I absolutely appreciate having a 6th gear now after previously only owning 5 speeds.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:13

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I've only driven my current 5-speed. When I get up to speed with the flow of traffic on the highway I will sometimes shift out of 5th to go to 6th but stop before I put it into reverse. I think a 6th gear would be nice.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:13

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GT

Cé hé sin > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:15

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I've driven four, five and six speeds. Five's enough in the real world. If you want an overdrive gear you can do this just as easily with a five speed. If you have a diesel with a narrow power band more gears have theoretical advantages but I'll pass on them.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:16

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Due to a rather urgent emergency, I once had to drive my friend's Kia Soul, 6-speed. In THAT vehicle, it was incredibly unnecessary, I felt.

Übel > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:17

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My last car was a 1.8t GTI with a 5-speed, my current car is a 24v VR6 GTI with a 6-speed that is essentially the same box but with an extra gear thrown in. The 5 speed did everything I ever needed it do, but the 6 really is a lot nicer.

TwinCharged - Is Now UK Opponaut > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:19

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I think sixth gear and upwards is usually for fuel economy, although laziness and slow response is not always the case. There's six gears on an R53 Cooper S, but even in sixth, it pulls like a train when you step on it. Love superchargers.

My citroen won't start > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:24

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No, and I think the same for Autos. I recently drove my mom's Evoque, has a 9 speed auto, it was unbearable and clunky.

Tohru > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:25

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My dad's '89 C4 Corvette had a 6-speed manual. In 6th he could get 30mpg on the highway.

6 speeds are so you can get a really low ratio for Interstate/motorway/Autobahn driving and not have a huge jump between gears.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:26

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I'll jump in and echo others, with an engine that has a decently broad power band 5 is definitely enough. My old Alfa 164-s did just fine between 0-158mph with only five gears. That said this 6-speed in my FieSTa is not only a beautiful trans to use, but sixth lets me loaf along on the highway at 2500 RPM despite the gear ratios being super close together. I think it probably doesn't have any more top speed in sixth, but that same loafy highway speed in 5th is busy and not as fuel efficient as it is in sixth.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 10/26/2014 at 16:31

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I'll also mention that the FieSTa has so much torque through such a wide RPM range, and the gear ratios are close enough that I often shift it 1-3-5-6 unless I'm in a hurry or feeling like having a little fun.

GhostZ > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:35

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It ALL depends on the gear ratios and engine configuration.

Basically, take a formula for the torque curve at various throttle positions, mapping the following variables: throttle position, rpm, and HP (the dependent variable).

Next, figure out the necessary torque at the wheels to move the car at an acceptable speed for each given throttle position and current speed.

Take each gear and final gear to that map, and you should now have a map for every gear showing the torque at the wheels in that gear. Remove any part of that map that does not exceed that minimal torque value. Engine RPM becomes the speed of the car now.

The answer becomes obvious:

Overlap the graphs for each gear at their associated speeds. 1. For EVERY speed and EVERY throttle position, there should be at least 1 gear wherein that minimum torque value is met. If not, then there are too few gears, or non-optimal ratios.

The max acceleration at each throttle level between two speeds, on any gear, including the time between the changes for each gear, should not be LOWER than the acceleration over the same period but with fewer gear changes. If not, then there are too many gears.

Do the same for fuel economy now, with a minimum fuel economy level, instead of torque.

If all 4 scenarios hold, then you have the correct number of gears. The ONLY reason why a car manufacturer may not meet this is cost, as it's pretty easy to figure out, mathematically, what ratios are optimal given a certain torque curve.

Notice how you can still violate the first condition without having too few gears. That's because a 1 gear car is FINE if the torque curve is flat and high enough at every throttle position to a sufficiently large RPM for the speed intended. But too many gears in any car is bad because of the time it takes to change. However, if the change times are almost instant, than the number of gears that is "too many" can get arbitrarily high.

DasWauto > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:39

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Depends on the chosen ratios and how broad the engine's powerband is. With a narrow powerband, more gears are necessary.

My Golf is one of the few cars in its class that only has a 5-speed manual (the Focus is the other I know of and tried) and it has enough torque and a wide enough powerband not to need a sixth ratio. The gears are well spaced too, even at highway speeds I'm doing 2000 rpm or less.

Steve in Manhattan > My citroen won't start 10/26/2014 at 16:41

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Every auto I've had since the late 80s - and I think that includes the '97 SHO - was a 4 speed. Perfectly acceptable. I always watch with interest as the next autobox is introduced - usually by Mercedes or Lexus - look, it's a 10 speed! And when does it end? And why keep adding complexity and cost? Rode in a Lexus 600Lh a few months back - boy was I surprised when that pullled up, expecting a Town Car - and the shifts were not even perceptible. And agreed on the CVT, the last Civic I rented had one, I believe, and it felt like it wouldn't let me have all the power the engine could make.

DasWauto > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 10/26/2014 at 16:42

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Some engines need a 6th gear if they have a narrow powerband, for others it really depends on how the ratios are chosen. Eg. My Golf does <2000 rpm at highway speeds in 5th.

Life and Times of Magoo: The People's Champ > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:46

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Here's a vote for YES. My Speed3 def benefits for from having 6th for highway cruising. My old Protege5 could even use the extra gear just due to the RPMs it cruises at in 5th.

Steve in Manhattan > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/26/2014 at 16:47

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My family has a Fiat-Chrysler connection. My sister/brother-in-law get to purchase the low-mileage demonstrators that the big shots use. I told my sister that if she doesn't replace her current Town & Country with some sort of Alfa, she's nuts. That is, of course, if they offer anything here other than the 4C. So many great cars we cannot get here.

Cé hé sin > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:47

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If you're not driving a car you have more options of course....

Steve in Manhattan > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 10/26/2014 at 16:49

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I remember going 1-3 in my Camry wagon until I talked Toyota into splitting the rebuild with me - felt unnatural. 5 speed, 2nd gear failed 300 miles outside of warranty, and they fought me until I explained that I put 100 grand on a HiLux without so much as a replaced clutch.

My citroen won't start > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:50

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My current 2011 Citroen C5 has a 4 speed auto and I it is perfectly acceptable indeed, I really don't see the point of overcomplicating things. 5 speeds are everything we will ever need.

samssun > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:52

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My car has a close ratio 5 speed which is nice around town, but also does 3500 at 70-75. Definitely needs a 6th gear.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:53

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Oh c'mon, let her get the 4C! Of the current line up there's nothing special about any of them, apart from the 4C. What Fiat offerings do you get over there?

Steve in Manhattan > samssun 10/26/2014 at 16:53

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What sort of car?

samssun > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:54

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1993 300zx

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > My citroen won't start 10/26/2014 at 16:57

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The 20 speed auto is basically to get as much fuel efficiency as possible. That's why 4 and 5 speed autos are rarefying.

My citroen won't start > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback 10/26/2014 at 16:58

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I know they are, I just don't care that much about it.

Steve in Manhattan > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 16:58

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One of the most amusing calls I've ever heard on Car Talk. Guy calls in about his bog stock Civic - 4 speed manual, no A/C, didn't even have a clock. He drove the crap out of it, then lent it to his brother for a year. The brother blew the engine, so he replaced it with a junkyard motor. The first brother borrowed the car, and he was driving on the highway and thought the engine sounded strained and, magically, shifted into 5th. Did the car just grow a 5th gear? The Car Guys speculated that the junkyard would only sell the shop the tranny and motor together. They also said that the first brother should buy the other brother the 5-speed knob as a gift.

TaBroe > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/26/2014 at 16:59

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The 500, 500L and...thats it

Manuél Ferrari > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 17:00

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Once you get used to a 6 speed it will feel perfect. You'll never feel like there are too many gears.

Now a 7 speed manual, I dunno... Never owned a car with a 7 speed manual. I do own a car with a 7 speed DCT and to be honest it does feel like too many gears when I shift manually. I often drive the car in automatic mode because it gets hard to keep track of when to shift when I'm just cruising around and want to get better gas mileage. In automatic mode the computer is aggressive about upshifting early as long as you're not driving hard or going up a hill.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > My citroen won't start 10/26/2014 at 17:00

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I know, it's rather stupid. I don't need my car shifting every 1.6 seconds.

Cé hé sin > My citroen won't start 10/26/2014 at 17:01

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Are you sure there are only four? I hired a C5 once and it had a six speed.

Manuél Ferrari > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 10/26/2014 at 17:03

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Especially because some older 5 speed cars are noisy as hell on the highway at 80 MPH in 5th gear. 6th gear lets you save fuel and quiet things down when cruising.

Steve in Manhattan > samssun 10/26/2014 at 17:03

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That's one of my 'shoulda' cars - instead of the '97 SHO shoulda got a 300ZX, Supra, SVX, BMW 3 series, used BMW M5. But hey - got nearly 100K trouble-free miles out of it and bought something American for once. Auto only in that car, but it was a great long-distance car.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > TaBroe 10/26/2014 at 17:06

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500's are brilliant, not too sure about the L's. You guys need the Panda 4x4 in your life!

Steve in Manhattan > Manuél Ferrari 10/26/2014 at 17:10

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You're almost certainly right - had a 37 inch Sony LCD I was perfectly happy with, then we were given a 42 inch Pioneer plasma by the GF's boss, who was redecorating his beachfront home. (I love it when this guy gets tired of things). For the first couple days I kept thinking - it's so much bigger! The colors are so much brighter! Now it's like it's always been here.

Side note: when she texted me to ask if we wanted a free TV, I assumed it would be a small LCD, in which case we could give it to the staff here in the building to upgrade what they have in their break room. Instead there was this big plasma. I did some research, and found that the Pioneer Kuro is actually sought after - people worshipped these things saying it's the best picture ever, but Pioneer got out of the plasma business (as did Panasonic recently). We are so lucky to have this thing.

Team6.1 > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 17:11

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My 2011 Mustang 5.0 had a 6 speed manual. I could start in second, or frequently skip a gear without a problem. I could hit 125 mph in 4th, and it was really nice to cruise on the highway in 6th. So I guess the added gear was nice for better ratios but yes it was cumbersome at times.

AthomSfere > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 17:16

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I almost never use 6th on my car. 5th does fine for cruising 40-65.

Manuél Ferrari > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 17:18

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Wait when am I going to get free TVs???

That is pretty awesome!

The same thing is happening with smartphones. I was one of those people who thought phones with screens over 4.3" were stupid up until about 2 years ago. Back then I thought 4.3" was perfect. Then last year I started liking the 4.7" phones. Then the 5" phones. Now I have the stupidly big 5.5" iPhone on order. I know how dumb I will look talking into it and that it won't fit properly in some of my jeans. But it feels so damn good to use...

Burrito de EJ25 > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 17:25

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WHY DO THINGS NEED TO CHANGE?! IT'S SCARY!

Burrito de EJ25 > My citroen won't start 10/26/2014 at 17:27

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For fuel efficiency. It's not everything that we will ever need, complacent Luddites.

jkm7680 > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 17:28

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I enjoy five, but six would always be nice just to have.

Steve in Manhattan > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/26/2014 at 17:29

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It's not a matter of letting her, it's a matter of her needing something reasonably practical. Kids are old enough now that she can ditch the minivan, but she needs a 4-door. I say Giulietta.

Steve in Manhattan > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/26/2014 at 17:30

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Oh, and Fiat? We can have anything we want as long as it's a 500.

Steve in Manhattan > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/26/2014 at 17:32

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I've always thought those would sell here in US America, but apparently Fiat thinks otherwise.

thebigbossyboss > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 17:33

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I have a 5 speed (2003 Rice rocket Cavalier) and it feels quite fine around town, but on the highway I would like a 6 or OD. At 70 mph I'm doing about 2.5K rpms and anything above that is even worse.

Steve in Manhattan > Manuél Ferrari 10/26/2014 at 17:39

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Yeah - it's a great gift that we use every day.

I have an iPhone 5C. Work will buy the GF anything she wants Apple - we were in the Upper West Side Apple store, looked at the 6 and 6 Plus, and she was all 'meh.' I could spend some money and replace the 5C, but I think it'll do for now - I don't use nearly all the features. And it's Kermit-the-Frog green. How can you beat that?

Best case I've seen on a 6 Plus so far? Says: "No You May Not Bend Me."

Steve in Manhattan > GhostZ 10/26/2014 at 17:40

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This might be the most thoughtful comment I've seen on Oppo. Thanks for taking the time and explaining.

Manuél Ferrari > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 17:42

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Hahaha I'll need to find that case for myself

duurtlang > DasWauto 10/26/2014 at 17:42

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Exactly. Your Golf will be perfectly fine with a 5 speed. However, my Peugeot 406 coupe desperately needs a 6th gear. When I cruise on the highway at 150 kmh it's at 4500 rpm. That's just way too much. It means I have to downshift far less often, but it increases sound production and fuel consumption. I can put it in 5th at 50 kmh, 1500 rpm, and set the cruise control. The means you can drive it lazily, but I think my transmission comes with poorly chosen gear ratios as the downsides outweigh the advantages.

My citroen won't start > Cé hé sin 10/26/2014 at 17:44

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The Brazilian market only got the 4 speed, the same gearbox I have in my C4 and had in the Megane.

Steve in Manhattan > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 10/26/2014 at 17:44

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2014 - 2 engines (1.6L and 2.0), horsepower 130 and 164BHP respectively, and CVT only transmission choice. Sad.

My citroen won't start > Burrito de EJ25 10/26/2014 at 17:45

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I don't care about fuel efficiency, it's as boring as reliability and standard equipment.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 17:46

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It's a 2012...

Cé hé sin > My citroen won't start 10/26/2014 at 17:49

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Oh, is that the first model? That had four or six speeds depending on market and engine.

My citroen won't start > Cé hé sin 10/26/2014 at 17:50

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No, 2 gen, just like the one in my avatar.

daender > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 17:57

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I would kill for the Miata (NB/NC) 6-speeds to have the same first 1-4 gear ratios as the 5-speed but with a longer 5th and 6th for quieter highway cruising. Instead the 6-speed comes with even tighter ratios than the already short 5-speed.

Steve in Manhattan > Burrito de EJ25 10/26/2014 at 17:57

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Heh - change for the sake of change is always amusing. Look, it's the 2019 Lexus LS 940iHLLL with a 750 HP V16 engine (8.1 litres) and a 19-speed transmission! Even the airbags have airbags! No one but the dealer can work on it, and somtimes they get baffled! Oil filter? $256.99. Uses special transmission fluid that's more expensive per quart than Chateauneuf de Pape! Has a combination air/oil suspension that uses a mixture of Felippo Berio extra virgin olive oil and Mobil 2 (specially developed synthetic for this car only!)! An engine rebuild? How much equity do you have in your home?

Steve in Manhattan > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 10/26/2014 at 17:59

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Please tell me you weren't required to touch that steering wheel cover ...

TaBroe > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/26/2014 at 18:01

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Absolutely! Fiat hasn't sold "regular" cars in the US since the 80's and now they're trying to go with the trendy chic look like MINI

Steve in Manhattan > daender 10/26/2014 at 18:01

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Never drove a Miata save the first gen one, bought a '91 CRX Si instead. I think my then-girlfriend vetoed the Miata - later I vetoed her.

DoYouEvenShift > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 18:04

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Depends on the car, engine and gearing. I do love 2 overdrive gears in my 6 speeds. 80 MPH at 2k rpm and 30mpg,thank you very much.

Regardless of the type of car and engine, having a tighter gear ratio spread makes for a more gratifying driving experience. And adding more gears makes that possible. Of course you eventually hit the point of diminishing returns.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 18:06

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No it's just the only photo online I found with a 6speed 2012. I guess they had it for 2013 as well. Anyway, the one I drove was the very definition of a rolling appliance. And having a 6-speed didn't help with efficiency either: it was getting 26.7 mpg according to the trip odometer.

Brian Silvestro > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 18:07

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I have 6 and I yearn for a 7th because the gearing is so short. Cruising on the highway at 75mph is a 3k rpm thing.

daender > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 18:10

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Good call. The only issue I have with some 6-speeds in the location of the reverse gear. I'm just so used to it being behind 5th that I get confused where reverse is in 6-speeds when it's far over and down right in what also feels like 6th.

Steve in Manhattan > My citroen won't start 10/26/2014 at 18:26

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And one more thing about that car - saw one parked on the street the other day and, in the metal, it seemed kinda clunky looking to me. As Top Gear advised us, Victoria Beckham helped design it.

Justino6969 > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 19:03

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My 5 speed Jetta works just fine and I love it. The number of gears has it's ups and downs. At highway speeds, it sits around 3500 rpm. Which means I have awesome throttle response and acceleration anytime I want it, but some times I do wish it had a super long 6th gear to cruise at like 1500 rpm and save more gas.

DasWauto > duurtlang 10/26/2014 at 21:21

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The Mazda3 that preceded the Golf had a similar issue, a bit over 4000 rpm at 150... allegedly, as those speeds are a little more illegal here. The sound deadening in that car is sufficient up to 120 though so it's not too bad at normal speeds, just at higher rpms the engine makes its presence known.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Steve in Manhattan 10/27/2014 at 00:01

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If low on power it would be great. in the 914 1st is almost for crawling, and 5 always seems a little too wide on the highway.

Steve in Manhattan > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 10/27/2014 at 00:12

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Never driven one. Wish I had.

Burrito de EJ25 > Steve in Manhattan 10/27/2014 at 00:30

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Change for the sake fuel efficiency, refinement, and convenience. And if you're going to complain about the expense of parts on luxury brands, I'm sorry, but that's nothing new. That has nothing to do with new technology. That's to due with manufacturers trying to stick it to their customers long after they've paid up their cars.

Burrito de EJ25 > My citroen won't start 10/27/2014 at 00:34

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You don't, but the rest of the world does. Sorry you're irrelevant.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Steve in Manhattan 10/27/2014 at 07:20

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My Alfa 156 has a 6-speed, and my Jag XJ40 and (now ex-)BMW E36 have/had 5-speeds. I can say that you don't need 6 speeds, but it is nice to have. The Alfa cruises better on the motorway, but also has closer ratios in the lower gears so it zips through them a lot quicker.

I'd also say that some cars suit 5-speeds and some cars suit 6-speeds. The Alfa with it's utterly glorious rev-hungry V6 does very well with 6 speeds. The Jag with it's lazy long-stroke torquey 4.0l needs the longer gears to make progress and I reckon would actually be slower with shorter gears. Would be nice to have an extra overdrive gear on the top though...

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/27/2014 at 07:22

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Neat, didn't know you had an Alfa GT. I've got it's platform-mate the 156. I'm guessing with 6 speeds it's a V6, although did they stick the 6-speed on some of the big diesels as well? I can't remember...

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 10/27/2014 at 10:17

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Pokey little diesel actually! It's the 1.9JTD which performs OK, it's not super quick but it's a bit of fun. What you got in the 156? I have loved the 15* lineage since I first saw the 155 race in touring cars

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/27/2014 at 11:00

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It's the 2.5l V6. A little nose-heavy, but a glorious glorious little engine. Really smooth, rev-hungry and sounds great. I've got GTA Sportwagon anti-roll bars on as well which helps a lot with understeer :)

If I find myself with some money on my hands and nowhere for it to go (highly doubtful at the moment), I'd like to swap a 3.0l and an LSD in the front, but it's great as-is :)

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 10/27/2014 at 11:18

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She purdy! The rule on petrol Alfas is rev it 'til the valves dance on the bonnet. Always works ;) I tried to 3.2 V6 in the GT but it just felt lethargic when cornering, whereas the 1.9 handles beautifully, no joke THE best handling FWD car I've ever tried. Saying that the 3.2 has so much more go about it

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/27/2014 at 11:49

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Absolutely :) it'll go up to 7250rpm before the fuel cutoff stops the fun. Yeah the V6s are a little nose-heavy, and the stock suspension needs some tweaking for them to fly properly.

Have you ever thought of a remap for the 1.9l? My friend has a 2.2HDi Peugeot 406 Coupe and a remap has utterly transformed the car. It went from ~135bhp to 175bhp and nearly 300lb-ft of torque. It now pulls cleanly all the way to the redline rather than running out of puff halfway through as well. Well worth the expenditure :)

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 10/27/2014 at 11:52

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Never even considered it, how does it affect fuel economy? The only reason I ask is the Alfa is pretty much my long distance car(!)

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/27/2014 at 12:22

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Couple of ticks better from what he says. Was averaging about 60mpg and now it's up to 62 (I think in the 60s anyway, not sure but it was still 2mpg better). I think the tradeoff is in longevity, but with a diesel you'd be looking at a rebuild at 280k miles rather than 300k :)

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 10/27/2014 at 13:49

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Sounds like a win - win, and that's my kinda thing! I'll check it out and report back, what's good, what's bad - I've heard good things about the FuelShark

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/27/2014 at 14:34

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I think fuelshark has been almost entirely debunked as hokum so I hope you're joking ;)

Are you in the UK? If so, Angel Tuning specialise in diesel remaps so they might be worth looking at :)

JEM > Steve in Manhattan 10/27/2014 at 14:57

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Having also driven everything from 3-on-the-tree manuals to a modern 6 speed I feel like 5 speeds in a manual is almost always plenty. I had a 6 speed for years and the difference between 3rd and 4th was barely noticeable, they should have been one gear.

I can see having 6th as being some uber-overdrive and leaving 5th as a normal overdrive but most 6 speeds in average cars don't seem to be set up that way. I think Corvette's have that though, 2 overdrive gears? Makes sense with a torquey V8.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 10/27/2014 at 15:09

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Yessir it was :) Yeh I caught them in a Pistonheads forum post but they're an awful long way away from me. There are these guys who are local, but only a mobile number and no landline makes me wary

Steve in Manhattan > JEM 10/27/2014 at 16:20

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I remember driving a friend's Volvo - 4 speed with the little switch on the shift knob for O/D.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/27/2014 at 18:23

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Yeah that does seem a little sketchy. I'd definitely look for reviews before giving them any money.

The other option would be to look on an Alfa forum to see if there's anyone who does them. That's how my friend got his 406 done. There was a guy in Romania who sent him an email with the attachment in to be loaded through an OBD tool (or something along those lines). He even tailored it to that specific car after my friend sent him some readings from the ECU :)

JEM > Steve in Manhattan 10/27/2014 at 18:27

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I remember those well, I feel like that OD button was all the rage in the 80s/90s.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 10/27/2014 at 18:33

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A mate of mine is a wrencher with a garage so he should be my first port of call. So the remap is literally connect via OBDII, replace firmware/software, verify and disconnect? Surely not worth £199...

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/28/2014 at 05:30

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Yep :) it's the development of the map that costs the money, and the fact that there aren't loads and loads of people who do it so the handful of companies can set their own prices really :S

Still well worth the money, and eventually it should pay for itself in improved economy, even if that takes a little while :)

Too many M's > Steve in Manhattan 10/28/2014 at 06:38

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For my track car (E36 M3), I think 5-speeds are plenty. I could do a 6-speed swap but for that it would serve more as an overdrive for cruising. Not needed for a track car plus the 5-speed is lighter and a little more robust.

n54 & s38 > Steve in Manhattan 10/28/2014 at 13:07

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Just been thinking the same thing. My 335xi has 6 gears and my 1990 M5 has 5. The funny thing is that the 335 has so much torque that gear selection isn't really that crucial and I end up skipping gears all the time when upshifting (1-2-4-6). The M5 on the other hand, makes all its power above 4000 RPMs so a sixth gear with a closer ratio box would be ideal. Plus it would be nice to have a sixth gear as an overdrive on the highway.

Steve in Manhattan > n54 & s38 10/28/2014 at 13:11

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Somewhere in this post someone wrote a long, thoughtful comment on how some cars need more gears and some don't. I'm guessing what happens a lot is the manufacturer builds one transmission that will go with 3 or 4 engines offered, and damn the results. If it winds up with tall gearing, so be it.

Shiftright > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 10/28/2014 at 16:19

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It's an Alfa trademark. They make top speed coincide with redline in top gear, which means you can actually accelerate in top gear, as I do in my trusty 64 Quadrifoglio also

jj > Steve in Manhattan 10/29/2014 at 09:00

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In a high revving 4 banger, you probably want 6 speeds.

In a high torque v8, you are probably fine with 5.

Anywhere in the middle, its hard to say.

In most (modern) cars, the highest gear will be an overdrive, meaning that combined with the final drive ratio, you actually cant reach your top speed in that gear, but you will get better fuel economy at highway speeds.

Anonimious > Steve in Manhattan 10/29/2014 at 11:18

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I'm glad I got 6 gears on my 06 LJ Rubicon... Even at 'highway speeds of going 65 mph!' the engine sits at around 2500 - 2700 rpms. "What?! Can't hear you!"